Look for the Helpers with Erin Essenmacher

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Erin Essenmacher
My mom was amazing. She was amazing. And she really taught us to sit with our feelings, to understand our feelings to process them. She taught me that life is beautiful and complicated and multifaceted. And it’s very rarely, if ever, one thing at a time. And so how do you sort of look at for the pieces and parts and model fits together. So that that kind of beautiful irony is see, she really taught me how to sort of grieve her in the way that she raised us.
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Voice Insert: Welcome to Voices of Athena, a podcast highlighting the personal stories of some of the most successful women in business. I’m your host, Priscilla Brenenstuhl. Today we are joined by Erin Essenmacher. She is a Board Member, Content Strategist, C-suite Leader, Systems Thinker, and Changemaker. She also recently joined our team here at Athena to head our strategy and member experience. But enough about what’s on her bio…Erin,
Priscilla Brenenstuhl
How would you describe yourself?

Erin Essenmacher
I would describe myself as empathetic, curious, creative. I’m always sort of trying to figure out how things work and how things work together and, and how things are are related. And I also am a big believer that we’re sort of all interconnected. And I have one of my favorite quotes, and especially in my former life, as a documentary filmmakers really resonated but I can’t remember who said it. But basically, the gist is, I believe there’s no one you can’t love at least a little once you’ve heard their story. And I feel like that’s a real sort of guiding principle for me and how I show up. So that’s why I say empathetic.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
Love that. I’m kind of obsessed. I think this has come up before in this podcast with like, wicked and the story like the story of the villains, you know? And just for that, just for that reason, I love Yeah, I can show that everyone is lovable.

Erin Essenmacher
Well, right. And it’s like, think why those stories resonate is because we all have all those parts in us, you know, it’s loud, for different parts are louder in different people. But I think it’s not just about us, I think people can go straight to like, oh, that person did something really bad. Okay, maybe? Yes, absolutely. It’s true for some people. But it’s also this idea that it is, first of all, we can sort of make those things better if we don’t understand them. So I think a big part of it is just creating more understanding, and then also recognizing that we all have those parts in ourselves. And I think part of diving into that sort of shadow side, you know, in any given story or person is also about creating deeper understanding within ourselves. So that so that we can show up in the way that we want to in the

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
world. Absolutely. Even having compassion for the times that we’ve messed up and for the parts of ourselves that we aren’t as comfortable to lose 100% What is your greatest ambition?

Erin Essenmacher
So it is something I’ve been working on, on and off, and I determined to finish it in this lifetime,
I really want to write a memoir about my mom growing up with my mom and my relationship with my mom. So I’m going to get that done.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
I will be one of the first people to buy it.
What excites you the most?

Erin Essenmacher
What excites me, I love let’s see what excites me, I’m really excited when I see all of these amazing entrepreneurs that are using technology, new ideas to solve big problems, like, it’s so easy to get overwhelmed by the things that we feel like, are really big and heavy and feel bigger than us, like climate change, for example, right? Let’s, let’s take that. And then you read stories about these, like little startups who against all odds are like, developing technology that like separates oil from water to help with oil spills, or, you know, you can look at almost any big problem that we’re facing as a society as a country as a planet. And you can find multiple, somebody’s who have dedicated their life or a big chunk of their life to trying to figure out how to fix it. And so that’s what inspires and excites me is focusing on those people. And then also, I’m really inspired and excited by the whole impact investing faith, because I also think a big part of moving that work forward is sort of how capital is allocated and supporting those folks. So I get a lot of, I get a lot of inspiration from that. And also, you know, kind of going back to the, the quote I shared before, I really just moved by watching communities come together, watching strangers to kind of be kind to each other, support each other. Because I think, again, I really do believe we will sort of rise or fall based on how we understand the interconnectedness of, of humanity and the planet and the way that we live. And so I think everything from how we show up in our families and relationships, how we show up in our communities, how we show up in our businesses, the more that we can center that concept, I think the better off we will be and I get really excited when I see individual, you know, kind of everyday people all the way through to CEOs who are living that way and showing

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
up that way. Me too. I actually got goosebumps talking about it. This you know, this kind of belonging crisis that we have. And so when you see belonging happen in any kind of sense or form, whether it’s, you know, in your most intimate relationships, you know, seeing like, I remember the other day A me and my me and my husband were getting kind of maybe uncharacteristically close together in a in a some semi public place. And you have little kids. I mean, we barely do that at all right. But there was just this cute moment. And yeah, we were really connecting. And then, and he was really in it too. And then for a second, I could see he became aware of the surroundings. I’m not we weren’t like, we weren’t small kisses. It wasn’t anything, you know, yeah. He just became aware of the surroundings and kind of like, you know, kind of, oh, like, maybe they’re got people watching. And I was like, let them watch. I was like, let them see love. Yeah, racing. Because, you know, all over in the city, too. We hear people shouting and arguing. You know, and, you know, like, how often do we see people, you know, embrace and we’re like, a couple with Yeah, you we need,

Erin Essenmacher
we need those models, I think, you know, one of the things that I started doing, I was going through a period where it was particularly sort of, I don’t know, just depressed and frustrated with some of the things that were happening in the world that felt just sad and heavy and kind of cruel and different things to me. And I found myself just like, almost rage posting on social media. And I was like, this is not, it’s not how I want to be in the world. And it’s not what the energy I want to put out. And so I started, just even it was just for me, it was just like, it was my own little accountability practice, okay, if you want to post something about, oh, my gosh, I can’t believe this thing happened fine. But then that has to be followed up, which means you have to go look for it by something that is beautiful or awesome, or like something positive. And so I started posting it with this little hashtag things going awesome. And to your point, the way that people responded to that mean, people are craving that people, you know, I would, you know, people will, even if they weren’t, like liking it publicly would message me and be like, you know, thank you for posting that. And so it kind of became this thing. And then other people would go find those stories and use the hashtag. And it was, it was just a reminder to me, like, we need those examples, you know, and just the way and you know, and listen, I worked in media, like I’m part of this. So I say this with some self awareness and recognition and love, like, but just so much of the way that media is sort of monetized and just the way that it sort of shows up is it’s it’s incentive to focus on the negative. Now we need some of that, right, we need to understand what’s going on, it’s not great. So we can help fix it. Again, I don’t mean to, say, say that everything should be positive all the time, necessarily. But I think we need a balance. And we have to remember that there is a lot of good in the world. And there’s a lot of love in the world. And I really believe that people and different people believe differently about this, but I truly believe that people are more good and kind than not, but you wouldn’t necessarily know that depending on how you curate your news. And so I do think it’s really important not to consciously and proactively look for and put those things out into the world. So I love that story about you and your husband.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
And you know, even with us, we will say Oh, I’m sugarcoating or Oh, like, it’s almost like we’ve gotten into a way where the positive feels like something that Yeah, or like not express doing fantastic. Or, like, you look rains, and you’re like, oh, no, yeah. You know, instead of being like, and it’s like, you know, just leaning into that, that that, that it’s not shameful, like, somehow it’s become shameful to like, Yeah, feel good.

Erin Essenmacher
I was just at this little retreat a couple of weekends ago with this Irish writer, and peace activist named Gareth Higgins and he, we were chatting, and I think we were probably talking about what had happened to me with the fire. Anyway, he just was just talking about all the support from our community. And he just said, I hate people that won’t let themselves be loved. And it’s like, you know, basically, I mean, even with the fire, you know, we’re lucky we have great insurance we have but really was people were like, wanting to set up a GoFundMe or do a meal train. And it was like, Okay, we don’t need those things. But I get it. You know, I feel this way when something traumatic happened back to the interconnectedness when something traumatic happens to people we love to our community. It’s why we all want to donate after a natural disaster because we that is to me proof of that concept that we’re interconnected. We feel it on some level, right? And we want to be able to do something even if it’s small and so you know, when I was sick what that looks like is me saying everybody who wants to send me a t shirt and I’ll where I’m talking my appointments and then I’ll it’ll be like a hug from you. And I posted pictures of them. And, you know, so when we, you know, just had the fire it’s like, I don’t you know, we are really lucky. You know, we don’t need we have enough. We have enough to rebuild kind of the physical parts of our life. But you know, we lost all of our cookbooks. It’s like, send me a recipe. Love, like, I love to rebuild our cookbooks. We’d like recipes from our friends or if you want to get us something buy like a little piece of art from Europe. Don’t count or a coffee mug or so I

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
store the bowl that you remade on.

Erin Essenmacher
Exactly. So it would be very easy to go, oh, no, no, we’re good. We don’t need anything. But I actually think exactly to your point, you’re almost doing a disservice to people because you need and it goes back to creating the story, you know, that circle of grief, like there’s something in that, that circle that gets broken, when you don’t create space for people to help you and to love you. And it doesn’t have to just be when something traumatic happens to your point about giving a compliment, like, those are ways that we’re trying to create more connection with people. And we’re taught, you know, it’s comes from a good place, which is we’re taught to be more humble, like, oh, no, you know, you know, this whole thing or, but, but I think that the more that we can learn how to graciously accept a compliment to give more compliments to you know, to just let people love us. It really does get strengthened so many things. And it again, we’re just not taught that typically.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
Yeah, yeah. So on all of that, you know, positivity, you know, what do you struggle with?

Erin Essenmacher
So I, you know, I actually just learned in the last few years that I have ADHD, which is actually something my mom was told when I was younger, and being like a good 1970s hippie mom, she was like, You’re not medicating my kid. She’s just creative, you know, but it was one of the things where I was like, Oh, my God, so much makes sense. Now, you know, I think I’ve always, you know, I have struggled a little bit with focus. Sometimes, if I’m really creative project I love I’m hyper focused. I was like, Oh, that’s my issue. But so there’s just a lot around ADHD, I won’t get into all the pieces and parts, but it definitely, it was a big relief, because it made me realize this is the other thing I struggle with it I know lots of people and putting lots of women do which is some form of, you know, impostor syndrome, or not feeling good enough, or being too hard on myself. And it was so interesting, again, looking at the connection points, to connect the dots between some of the ways that ADHD shows up and how I internalize that as there’s something wrong with me versus Oh, so really processing that in my now into my 40s has been really interesting. And kind of a gift back to, you know, there were a lot of ways that it, I’ve realized has made my life harder. But now understanding it, it’s something that I just figured out, like, okay, just like anybody else that has something where you know, you have something that’s weaker, you need some kind of a device or a support to sort of help strengthen that part of like, understanding, you know, where I can lose focus or understanding kind of just how that shows up in my life, you know, I’m the queen of losing things. So I need better organizational systems. You know, I used to think that being creative meant that like, having too rigid of a schedule was like the death of creativity. But I’ve now realized that actually putting more structure into my day allows me to be more creative. So it’s, it’s definitely been something I’ve struggled with my whole life, really realizing truly kind of the breadth and depth of it, as I’ve gotten older has, has, you know, there’s been a mourning period, because I’ve realized, Oh, if I understood this earlier, I could have saved myself a lot of heartache, I think I probably could have been more even more successful in different ways. But understanding it now has been a real gift. So it’s still something I definitely struggle with. And it shows up in all kinds of ways. But it’s also then something that I’m learning to build new tools around to help navigate,

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
which is brilliant, and not to skip too much to the Pollyanna thing. But like, quick to quickly ahead, you know, to the positive. But I would say because I’ve even started questioning that for myself, and seeing it show up in different ways. And I would say that there’s been this real shift, though, and how people have understood, received expressed and built conditions for ADHD in the last absolutely short period of time. So, you know, where’s like, finding out now is like, Oh, great, okay, now I understand myself better. And I can set up these systems that help me function not because I’m dysfunctional, but because I’m trying to operate to a society that’s very, like monotone in a way it really wants things this way.

Erin Essenmacher
It’s set up for you know, we used to talk about being I love that phrase, neurotypical versus not like, you know, I did a bunch of podcasts when I was at NACD, around the future of work. And we talked about how, you know, you look at something like the autism spectrum, we used to think of that as a disability. And really, this idea of thinking about it as being differently abled is not just like a buzzword. It’s like, No, literally, you know, there are certain things that are harder for folks who are on the autism spectrum, but there are other things that they’re a million times better at. And so it really is about that idea of neurotypical versus not and what does that mean? And you know, I think exactly to your point, it is a real gift that we have such a different lens in general around mental health and how brains work and a lot more grace and more understanding and to your point, exactly like that. It’s like okay, no, there’s nothing wrong with me. I just operate differently. So I just need to recognize that because there are a lot of good things that come with it right, just hang out,

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
but and a mom would have been encouraged and had that conversation that she might have approached it differently. But she was probably shielding you from what how she saw other people

Erin Essenmacher
respond to it, which is also a gift right there. Everything is the yin and the yang. But to your point that I think that part of exactly to your point, like, I think part of what has been helpful to me is precisely because there are so many resources, it’s always kind of been in the back of my mind, because she brought it up again, when I was in my early 20s, I think she had a little bit of guilt around it, like, oh, I should have gotten over this. And I feel like I was pretty high functioning. So it was like, Oh, this is just me being creative, I’m absent minded, I lose things and forget, you know, whatever, it’s hard for me to focus. That’s just part of how my brain work. But, you know, now at this age, precisely because there are so many resources there, like podcasts I listened to, and there are articles and all these other things, that have actually been a really big part of me recognizing that that’s what’s going on for me. And then also so many other tools, you know, like, there are a lot of good prescription medications out there. And I am all for Better Living Through Chemistry when it helps people 100% I’ve also been able to sort of experiment with some more sort of like nootropic, nootropics, and other things that aren’t quite to that level that have been helpful for me. But that’s all because all this information exists. So I’m super grateful for it. You know, I don’t I don’t know that I would have gotten to this point, if there hadn’t been a bigger societal shift that sort of opened up all of these resources to be available. So I’m really grateful
for that.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
What song are you singing a karaoke?

Erin Essenmacher
My go to Song forever.

Erin Essenmacher
I love to sing. I don’t have the best voice and I feel like if you can nail that, in that song, you’re like, do you have the audio?

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
We what song? I think it stopped for a second. What song did you say?

Erin Essenmacher
I Love Rock and Roll by Joan Jett. Oh, you can leave me all that. But I still love that song, but recently started doing Total Eclipse of the Heart by vinyl, which is the total pleaser you get everybody in.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
It’s always best when you get everybody to help you out. And you really feel Yeah, get with the community. Yeah.

Erin Essenmacher
Also honorable mention for you’re so vain by Carly Simon. So I was writing this list. I was like, I have a real soft spot for the 70s and 80s. Like, rocker women.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
I love it. And I can totally see that for you.

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Priscilla Brenenstuhl
What is your biggest fear? Honestly, my

Erin Essenmacher
biggest fear aside from you know, something happening to my loved ones is about not living up to my creative potential. I think there’s always this sense of there, I have, you know, all these ideas that there are things I meant to do and an impact I meant to make. And so a lot of my fear kind of comes out around am I playing too small? Am I Am I, my mom used to always say sort of every decision you make in life, if when you strip everything else away, either comes down to love or fear? And are you making more decisions from a place of love and fear? And so that’s a real guiding principle for me. But it can also be something that like I have some anxiety around like, you know, because it’s normal, you’re always going to make some fear. So that is, that’s a big one. For me. I just was interviewing a bunch of folks who had worked with Edgar Cohn, who passed away recently, and was the sort of Titan of like, the elite, like so many things, the legal world,
you know, just kind of, I don’t

Erin Essenmacher
even know how to describe it, he basically developed the concept of legal clinics, and the idea that everybody should have access to legal representation, even if you’re poor. So this whole idea that you, you know, law students like volunteer their time, he was working on this whole concept of basically using time as like a value system. So instead of using money as a value system, use time, anyway, he’s an amazing people should dig into him. He has an amazing, fascinating man who has had lots and lots of very deep impact. But I was talking to his wife, and she was talking about his last sort of 24 hours. And this is a man who was like, involved in the American Indian Movement and like instrumental in helping them secure some, you know, critical rights, I mean, the amount of things that he has touched into people that he has helped he had an interracial marriage back in the 50s, when it was illegal. And he and his wife did like amazing work around civil rights. I mean, the man’s legacy is just amazing and very far reaching. And in the last 24 hours, like his last night, he said to his wife, did I do enough? And maybe when I was interviewing her, because it just really speaks to, you know, that sort of servant leader mindset. And I think that’s always in the back of my head is like, Am I doing enough? And not enough in terms of like, succeeding the way that, you know, society thinks about it that like, I really believe that we’re here to leave things better than we find it. And so you know, the Iowas, that’s something I moms can commit On the bench that might doing enough

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
well, and to speak to your point, though, you just told talked about somebody who did all this stuff and still felt that. And so there’s two things I want to say about that. The first one being, you know, maybe that is what pushes you that gives you the gaps or whatever to keep doing and to keep reaching. And then the second part of that is, what would be enough? And what would it ever feel like? And maybe you have an answer for that? Maybe you don’t. But what would have what would constitute enough for you?

Erin Essenmacher
I do think I think both things are helpful, I think it’s good to have that tentpole of did I do enough, or that sort of touch tree so that you don’t get complacent? Because that’s certainly been true. For me. There have been times in my life where I’ve been much more involved in the community. And there have been times like everyone else where things get complicated or hard work gets busy, I’m tired. And I get, frankly, just get lazy, you know, I mean, that’s so I think it’s good to have that touch tree to come back to sort of as my own challenge to myself about am I living my values, I also think that that feeling of not being enough has also been, again, something I think a lot of people struggle with. And it’s also the root of a lot of pain and mental illness and harm. And so I think it’s also good to kind of think about it in chunks of like, you know, do I feel good about how I spend this day, you know, I’m a big fan of a gratitude list at the end of the day I and I do it with my nieces and nephews, because I think it you know, there’s all the science even behind it, right, it rewires your brain to start looking for the good stuff. So I think I think that that is okay, if it’s sort of balanced with another kind of touch tree of you know, these are the things I’m grateful for, here are the things I did today to either take care of myself, take care of my community, you know, take care of the folks around me whatever that looks like with work at home, wherever that is. So I think it needs to be in balance. Otherwise, you’ll just torture yourself, and then you can’t show up and be good for anybody. No, Edgar personally, but just from talking to so many folks who did know him really well. He sounds like he was really good at balancing those things. I think that’s a it’s a beautiful question to be asking on your deathbed and certainly really captures who he was. But I think it was also for him really balanced with a lot of love for the people around him and like genuine joy and working with them and not just struggle. So I think those things need to be in balance.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
So you can talk about it as little or as much as you want. I don’t want to provoke you, because it’s still really new. But this is yeah, very recent house fire

Erin Essenmacher
Yeah, the the house in Maryland. It was definitely kind of our main house like where all of our stuff was and remote.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
Yeah, but you weren’t there when it caught fire.

Erin Essenmacher
We had left that morning to go into the city and we’re just kind of doing our thing. We’re actually going to spend the night in the city and then our neighbors we have the best neighbors. Our neighbors texted us at about 730 When EPN was like your house is engulfed in flames. And so we went back up and it was pretty devastating. I was there like, I think eight fire trucks it was like a six alarm fire we live in in the unincorporated area. So we had volunteer fire departments from like our little town and like at least four, maybe five surrounding towns plus the county. And so first of all, I mean, I think that’s been a really big theme. For me, it’s just been overwhelming, how much support we’ve gotten, and just watching all these volunteer firefighters, like working to save our home and making sure it didn’t spread to other homes, like it was really a pretty amazing thing to watch. And, you know, I’ve been telling everyone but you know, it’s a good reminder, especially if you live in a more rural area to donate to your local fire departments, because they’re all volunteer and they rely on donations, and they the work they do is incredible. So yeah, that and it was just clear, our house was really well made, it turns out. So it’s the structure is more or less still standing. But everything inside is gone. I mean, it’s pretty interesting. Like there are a couple of rooms where this isn’t true. The stuff is still, you know, unsalvageable. But in most of the rooms, it’s like, it’s crazy to walk around the stuff that used to be your stuff and have it be completely unrecognizable. Like the refrigerator, just gone. Our couch just gone. Like, you know, we found like little wires and things like oh, that used to be Charlie’s piano. It’s insane.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
So surreal. Everything was like in slow motion. And okay, do they know what caused it?

Erin Essenmacher
The insurance company sent out a fire investigator. And it turns out, they were able to isolate it to an open vitamin D paginating. He just noticed it in a camera, they were able to isolate it to an electrical issue in the wiring in the wall in our bedroom, which actually just drives home again, how lucky we are because it was around the outlet, right next to my side of the bed, like six feet from where I sleep. And so, you know, again, like, of course, it’s completely devastating. I don’t want to sugarcoat that, that it happened. But I also just, you know, part of this, I guess it’s just how I’m wired. But kind of always, like the Mr. Rogers quote, always look for the helpers. And I feel like I always trying to look for what’s the lesson? What’s the, you know, what is the, the sort of thing you can take away that reinforces that there’s, you know, beauty in life, and not just every, you know, there’s obviously a lot of hard things and a lot of suffering. But I always feel like there’s always beauty tucked in there somewhere. And so how do you sort of, I guess I’m just wired to kind of look for it. But, you know, it just reinforces to me that we’re really lucky. Because if it had happened in the middle of the night, I just don’t know, well, how that would have gone down. So

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
I guess that goes to your character, and to a lot of people, I think that I’ve spoken to, and I reflect on even myself, because we were like, well, how are you doing that through this? Or how are you doing? It’s like, I mean, other option is what lay down and die.

Erin Essenmacher
Exactly. It’s funny you say that because that so this will be my answer to your last question about life defining moments. So I think you may know this about me, but I’m also a cancer survivor. And I in 2010, lost my mom very suddenly, I was very close to and then was diagnosed with cancer six months later, and it was, you know, what actually still is even with this fire, basically the worst year of my life, but I also grew so much, and I learned so much. And I always say it was the hardest year of my life. And I’ve also never felt so loved and so I think And so anyway, laughing because people would always say to me, same thing back then, like, oh my gosh, like you’re so strong, like, you know, don’t get me wrong. Like I had plenty of days where I was crying in my bed because I was in pain or it wasn’t like I was just some ray of sunshine all the time. But I think again, I think I had to find not positivity but just because it wasn’t just positivity. But it was was how do you find exactly what you’re saying? This sort of reasoning. motivation to keep going even if it’s just for like a chunk of a day, right? It doesn’t have to be something big and philosophical. And I kept doing that. And I people were like, Oh my gosh, this is so inspiring. And I used to say literally what you just said, Priscilla, I’m like, why? Thank you. I don’t really understand the answer. That’s real, but a ball and die like so. I mean, if it’s inspiring to you that I’m not doing that then great. When I’m inspiring, inspiring, I’m just trying to navigate the s***storm that have been they’ve been thrust into

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
100%. And you think I was in my last? I think it was in my very last interview where we kind of kind of came up with that. And I think no, maybe it was with Liz actually, where it might have been was tingle Mark might have been where we decided that it was like, like the best things come through, in the worst times often. And there’s this article, I was reading in reference to a friend actually at breakfast this morning about how you know, when things are just like, okay, but like tolerable, that that, in some ways is worse than when they’re bad. Because it doesn’t prompt you to make changes or risks. For growth, a lot of times you can just kind of be like, Oh, I can get through this or this, you know, this is tolerable, I’ll just keep going. Whereas like, sometimes, like, when it’s bad, you’re like, oh, s*** like, I need to do something about

Erin Essenmacher
it. Yeah, I think that it’s easier. It’s almost like these moments of like, either sheer joy, right? Something amazing is happening, right? You’re, you know, there’s a new child in the family, like some big milestone is happening, like something has happened for you, that you, you know, a big promotion, or maybe you’ve accomplished whatever those moments where you’re just like, there’s like a lot of joy around right, a wedding, a graduation, whatever it might be. Sometimes it’s a divorce for some people. But then when there’s like, when there’s a lot of joy, or like you’re saying on the other end, when there’s like, the things are really hard, I think those are the times when it is so it’s easy to feel the most alive, I think we really plugging into like, this is like the like the foundation of like, what it means to be human. And that’s why I think mindfulness is so important and has really kind of taken off. Because I think the reason we because we can’t live at the edges all the time, we’ll go burn ourselves out, like and so I think that’s why mindfulness is so important, because it’s like, okay, how do you create strategies, so that you can remember that fully alive feeling in the more kind of mundane moments, but I think that’s part of why even when things are really bad, it can there’s also that kind of weird yin and yang to it, because it is like, you know, the really bad stuff. I mean, you know, there’s nothing like losing someone you really care about, there’s nothing like being told that you have like a deadly, you know, disease that has invaded your body, right? Or that you’ve like, literally just lost, like, your home and all your physical things to be like, Okay, well, like this is shocking, but also you really get down to kind of like the brass tacks of what matters. Like I used to say, you know, even so my mom died in January of 2010. And I was diagnosed with cancer in July. And even like just taking when my mom died, I just a film I’d worked on for a long time had just sort of, you know, as doing the film festival circuit, it was literally about to have its big premiere at a theater in New York, like it was very caught up in like all the stuff around that. And my list of what I felt like was important was this long, but probably this deep, right. And after my mom died, the list of what was important became this long in this deep, and it was like, you know, it was all about honoring her remembering her grieving my sister was pregnant with her first baby at the time, it was very much about like, helping her through and being there for the birth of my niece, like, really fundamental like, like existential life stuff, and nothing else mattered. You know, my friends were so sweet. Like, even after three, four months, you know, we, they’ll come I’ll come have a drink. And I just, you know, I started saying no, more often than Yes, which is not like me, because it was just too hard. Because and I get it, you know, like, people would say like, oh, you know, I’m so sorry to hear about your mom. And we talked about that a little bit. And then they would say, Well, what else is going on? I’m like, That’s it, nothing else for you. And I’m not trying to be a Debbie Downer or whatever. But the point is, like this is this has rocked my world. And like, this is this is all that I’m doing right now.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
And I want it to rock my world. It should rock my world. And it’s such a big profound moment that I’m not rushing to escape it.

Erin Essenmacher
Right. Well, you kind of can’t I mean, I think even people that try to sort of escape it and other in ways that we know about like it always comes back back around like it’s 100% But not

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
everyone knows that. Yeah, so yeah, the conversation Okay, well, what’s next and how do I help you move past it? Yeah. And you know, my work in grief counseling my work as a mindfulness instructor, my work birth work. If all that stuff has really, like, there aren’t that many people who just know how, or who seen how, or have experience or comfortable, like sitting in the depths of sorrow, yeah, with another person without trying to provoke them to move past it, move through it get to the other side, it’s like, we’re so afraid, you know, not not in a negative way, even it’s in a way that they want to they, it’s probably painful for them, to think about you, and they don’t know how else to support you in that. But to try and make you feel better, you know what I mean? Let’s make you feel better. Well, that. So

Erin Essenmacher
that’s interesting, because that really your the work you’re describing is like, you’re working at the edges all the time, which is really kind of beautiful. I think for me, too, you know, that was a big part of my mom was amazing. I know. She was amazing. And she was the one that taught me so much of that, you know, she really taught us to sit with our feelings, to understand our feelings to process them. Like she, you know, she taught me to sort of let everything you know that life is beautiful and complicated and multifaceted. And it’s very rarely, if ever, one thing at a time. And so how do you sort of look at for the pieces and parts and model fits together. So that that kind of beautiful irony is see, she really taught me how to sort of grieve her in the way that she raised us. So I appreciate you saying that, because I agree, I think and I don’t think it’s it’s that there’s anything sort of special about me, I think, I think what you’re saying too personal and you certainly understand this with your work is we just as a society, we you know, we’re not taught to sort of grieve in a way that I think is, is sort of the natural rhythm of things, the way you’re talking about, which is it takes a while, you know, we’re sort of taught that you, you know, get a few weeks off, you know, people bring over some casseroles people send a card, and that you’re supposed to kind of be over it. And I think like, I’ll never be over leaving my mom never ever be okay. Exactly. I think people that have been through a big grief, which is a lot of us, you know, really understand that, you know, in a different way changes you, you know, when it changes you it also I think can be indicted definitely makes you more wiser I certainly I’ll tell you this much, for sure. Losing my mom, I you know, I was all sure I was 34 When she died, or Yeah, 34. And she, you know, before then I was No, it was in my 20s and 30s. Like building my career, I was a little bit type A, and my family was always in my friends were always really important to me. But I would agonize, like if there was like, Oh, I got this thing for work. But I really want to be here, it’s important for you to I would just really struggle with that. And it caused me a lot of angst. And I will tell you this losing my mom was really clarifying for me, because when those decisions come down now about you know whether or not to show up for people and what decisions to make. I don’t even have to think about it anymore. I remember, you know, my niece, and I don’t have, you know, biological kids of my own. But I’m super close to my stepkids. And also to my nieces and nephews, I have five nieces and nephews between the ages of six months and almost 13. And my 13 year old niece this year, she was turning seven, my sister was having a big surprise thing for her at Disney World. And my parents, my dad and stepmom were coming in and, and some other folks. And it was clear to me like, Okay, this is where I want to be, this is where I need to be. And we had a big thing going on at work on the Tuesday that I was going to be back for. And I just remember having this conversation with my boss at the time. And he was kind of like, Oh, I’m not sure I’m comfortable with this. And I said, you know, I’m really clear that this is where I need to be like, I’m really clear. And I’ll do whatever it needs to happen to get us ready for Tuesday before we go. But like this is a non negotiable for me. And that’s a pretty rare thing for me to stay at work. Because basically what I was saying is like, if you really have a problem with this, like, then I’m going to have to leave. And obviously it didn’t come to that. But it was it almost surprised me because like came out of my mouth before my brain even processed it but it was like it was like deep in the bones wisdom of like no, like, I am 100% clear that 30 years from now, I don’t have to think about which decision I will regret. Right. And so I think in that way, it’s really beautiful because it’s it’s really helped me clarify my values in a deeper way. And it’s cut out a lot of the angst because I just don’t have to worry about like, what people are gonna think if I make the other decision because I’m just so clear what matters to me that, that it just kind of cuts a lot of that away. So there are I mean, there are plenty of thing, you know, that I can point to from the things in my life that have been, you know, hard and traumatic, that have really been gifts. You know, one of the things even going through this fire people have said like I can’t believe how well you’re handling this and again, I don’t want to sugarcoat it or be Pollyanna about it. It’s been hard and I’ve definitely had like mornings where I woke up crying like I can’t believe Everything has just gone. But in general, it’s not the worst thing that’s ever happened to me. And that’s because I had that year and I had a year where I had to come to grips with what does it mean, you know, when the things that are so foundational to who you are, how you think about yourself, how you live your life, and those things are taken away. And luckily, in some ways, like when it happened in 2010, it was like very, like fundamental things like my How am I going to survive this, like what’s happening inside my body? You know, losing, I think anyone losing a parent, especially a mother, even if you have a complicated relationship with them, I was fortunate to have a really close relationship with my mom, but I just think losing your mom, that’s such an existential thing. Like, those were things that really I had to really sort of grapple with come to grips with, like, who am I, you know, who am I, you know, take cancer, like, who am I? If I can’t work, who am I, you know, I could basically be out in public for like, maybe an hour or two a day. And that was it. And then I was so exhausted, I had to go home, like, my life fundamentally changed over like, overnight, basically. And so I already had a toolbox. Nothing happened. It was like, Okay, wow, this really sucks. But also, I’ve been here before, I’ve been in a situation where you lose all these things that you think make you who you are, you think or your life. And then I’ve also had the same experience I had when I was sick, which is this, like, I’ll get weepy even talking about this, this like amazing rush of love and support from our community, which has really been overwhelming. And I think it’s so rare that we get an opportunity to see how much we’re loved and the impact that we’ve had on the people around us while we’re still here. And I’ve gotten that over the last two weeks. And so it’s really hard to be, you know, to be too wrapped up in like, whatever pair of shoes or couch or set of dishes we lost, because it’s, you know, it’s a lot, and it’s going to be a process to rebuild, but I mean, what a gift, you know, literally out of the ashes. So, you know, yeah, I think that that’s all a very kind of long way of saying, I totally agree with Liz, I think these hard things they are, you know, there’s no growth. Without pain. I used to talk about this in the context, even of innovation and business, right? The reason that more people don’t innovate is because it’s hard, you have to question your assumptions, you have to maybe, you know, admit that that what you’ve thought for sometimes decades and decades isn’t true anymore, maybe never was true. Like, there’s a lot that goes into what it means to grow and change whether we’re a human being or community, a country, a company, and there’s a lot about it, that’s super uncomfortable. But the bottom line is, you never get to the other side in terms of growth without going through that process. And so, you know, when it’s kind of comes at you in a way that is really shocking, that’s a lot to process. But if you can sort of, you know, have your feeling that with them, like you need to also you need, it needs to be okay to also be sad and be like, Man, this is hard. This really hurts this, you know, you need to be able to have that time. But I think as part of that longer process than being able to pull it apart and say, Okay, I’m still here. What do I have that I’m still grateful for? And who do I have that I’m still grateful for? And then how do I build upon that? And then and then you also can take in? What are the lessons I’ve learned from this? Because there’s always a lesson in everything. So it’s just a question of, you know, looking for it. And the you know, you don’t look for it on day one. You know, I wasn’t looking for the lesson once you’ve tried to figure out like anything, it survived the lesson. Yeah, it wasn’t looking for the one we pulled into the driveway and our neighbors ran up and hugged us, and we all just cried like, you know, I’m not talking. But I think eventually, that’s what we call it a process, right? All of these things are a process. And we call it that for a reason. Because it takes time. And there are multiple layers to it. And it’s complicated, but I do think in the process is always an opportunity to come back better, smarter, wiser, stronger, and a lot of ways. I had a friend who is just so happened. She I don’t believe in coincidences. So, but she was at a retreat, I think the day of or maybe the day after the fire. And I told her about it. And she goes, I’m literally in a class right now where we’re learning wabi sabi, right, where the thing where you put the bowl back together with the gold leaf, and the whole idea that it’s stronger and more beautiful with a broken heart. And so she brought her bowl back for us. And she was like, you know, a metaphor for you guys. So I really do believe it. And I don’t say that, you know, it’s some kind of cliche, I think it from lived experience, I really do feel stronger at the broken places. And I know that will be true for this too. You know, yeah.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
Yeah. And it’s so interesting, right? Because we have a way to kind of almost try to justify or like, oh, you know, I’m not Pollyanna, or I’m not, you know, this is cliche. And it’s funny how we do that for some of the most like we all Well, he’ll,

Erin Essenmacher
the reason I say it is because I don’t want I want to make sure that I’m also being honest, you know, it’s easy to sort of say like, you know, there’s always a lesson and like when you’re in it And it hurt. I mean, hurt II sometimes you don’t want to hear that you want to just say like, I just want permission to feel like shit. I just want permission to be like, Why did this happen to me? So I don’t say it actually, because I hear you, I say it in the opposite way, which is, when I’m talking about, you know, what I’ve learned or finding silver lining, I really want to make sure I’m also being honest about and including that. That is, it’s also coming with all these other things that are also true for me and I and giving other people permission. Because I think the I do truly believe in kind of the power of your thoughts and all that and and just, you know, some of the quantum physics behind that and indifferent and the spirituality behind that. But I also think there’s a line between that and what some people would call toxic positivity, which is you’re just always like, we’re picking ourselves up by our bootstraps. No, sometimes you need to just curl up in a ball and not die, but curl up in a ball and like get covered, right? Maybe for days, maybe for maybe,

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
maybe die metaphorically like you say die, you got the old you while they’re reacting. I’m the reason I’m mentioning it, because I hear what you’re saying. And there’s so much to be aware of, and spiritual bypassing and all that kind of stuff. And so yes, again, what are we trying to do? We’re honoring the grief, but I feel like I feel like the people who who who have radical faith and and come to the the knowing that there’s bigger lessons and transformation that are waiting for them on the other side are also often the times that the same kinds of people who allow the grieving process to happen, the link between those two peoples like a circle. And, you know, and so it’s like, saying, you know, maybe it’s because I also understood that grief is a process. Yeah, it’s part of this bigger process. And maybe it is because I allowed myself to fully fill those feelings not trying to numb it out not try to find the the answer or the reason first, before sitting with my emotions. Maybe it was me allowing that to happen, understanding that’s part of it, that got me out to the other side. And then at the end that that comes from a place of having been in the trenches before coming out the other side. And it’s really an act of like radical faith.

Erin Essenmacher
Yeah, for sure. I think that’s absolutely right. I, you know, when I was sick, I kept a blog, just it started as just a way to an easy way to keep everybody up to date on what was going on. And it kind of turned into, you know, sort of accidentally, while my family, I almost like to our alter our entire conversation, it really kind of turned into the sort of daily musings on what I was learning through this process, right. And one of the things I used to talk about all the time is and I think it goes back to that these like really fundamental, like life, things that happen and that really get to the core of what it means to be human. I used to always say, you know, you learn all these cliches that we kind of roll our eyes that exists for a reason, like, you don’t know what you got till it’s gone. Life is short, you know, all these things. It’s like, yeah, they are, we can roll our eyes at them and feel like oh, you know, this is like a motivational poster, a bumper sticker. But like, they actually are also pretty core truth about you know, how

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
money, money reflection on like, the human psyche, and how

Erin Essenmacher
sure I hear myself saying it, and then I kind of roll my eyes like automatically, then I take a step back and go, no, actually, that feels pretty right on right on the money right now. Literally,

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
and it’s funny that we have, you know, that we that those two things exist in parallel to each other in why

Erin Essenmacher
it was easy to have free will, especially to cancer and losing my mom, I now 13 years on the other side of that, so I have a lot more perspective, right? When I was in it, it’s almost like everything, right? It’s like, just like that list of private, everything. My world got really small, my list of everything got really small. And I also feel like when something so big is happening to you, and you’re in it, like Life is short, feels about right. You know, I mean, you don’t have a lot of words for it, because you’re in it, and you’re processing it, and you’re just trying to, like understand it to, like you said survive it. And so I actually think some of those little cliched shorthands are true, they’re helpful, because it’s like people ask a goal. How are you feeling? It’s like, I don’t even and I you know, some I’m a I’m a writer, I’m someone who usually people will tell you I’m not at a loss for words, but when you’re in it, it’s like, I don’t even know what to say right now. Because this is so big, and I haven’t, I’m still in it. So in some ways, it’s like I kind of get it like those little things that we could think of as cliches and like there’s a lot underneath that and like those four words are basically that’s kind of all I have in the moment.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
And yeah, and how profound that is to because I remember and I’ll send it to you after it’s one of my most favorite like spoken word pieces, and I can’t think of what it’s called and I can’t think of a name of a person I haven’t heard in a while. it’ll prompt me. But it was like, you know, those of us who really know Kane know that it takes the words from us, you know, like when you’re really and I’m not doing it justice, and I wish I had it there, because the way that this man says it is just so good. I might even do try to do a sound bite and hear, but it’s, you know, it takes your breath away, it takes your words away from you.

Voice Insert: Here’s the clip I’m referencing from Rudy Francisco’s piece, “Complainers”.
Soundbite: Rudy Francisco “Complainers” (1:10-1:36)

And, and so I find it even surprising that you were able to write and I do think that that is what is so kind of compelling about artists and storytellers and is that they’re making something from that space. And anyone who’s been in that space, you know, it’s, it’s either I can do nothing, or like I can’t even talk or put words to it. Or I have to do this in order. Like, I feel like I have to create something out of this in order to exist to keep breathing.

Erin Essenmacher
I’ve heard Glennon Doyle. And I’m sure she’s not the only one talking about, you know, everyone, same thing people are, you know, talk about her writing and how moving it is. And it really speaks to like a lot of what it means to be alive. And she just she said, like, I write because I’m trying to figure something out, I write because I’m trying to process it. And that’s how I process it. And that’s how I felt most of the time, actually, but definitely, when I was sick, you know, it wasn’t about there were I think, some bigger lessons in there. But they were things I was sort of understanding in real time, like I wrote a story about, and I went to the post office to mail something. And I was behind a guy in line. And he was looking at these breast cancer stamps. And he was basically talking about how he had lost his wife. And I heard him talking to the person in front of him. And I just was so moved by it. I think it also just when these things happen, it strips you away. And it makes you almost feel like a lot more raw to again, what the human experience not just for yourself, but at least for me, and I suspect for others, like it also makes me wrong, that human experience more generally. And he and I kind of ended up walking out together, and he was a few paces in front of me. And any other time I would have been like, Oh, I’m busy, I have to get to my next appointment, or oh, this is weird. Like, I’m not going to run up to the stranger and, but I just felt really compelled, like I had had this last and he had had this law. And I kind of ran after him and was like, Hey, I’m so sorry to hear about your wife. And he turned around, and you could just see on his face that he would, you know, surprise, but also so grateful. And we had this like really sweet, like 15 minute conversation in the parking lot. And I think it was just I think because I still like I just wrote my blog post about that one did write it. But I think to me, it was like, the back to what you were saying about kind of the beauty that comes out of it like it, it made me more present and vulnerable in a really good way. You know, you just stopped caring, like what people think when you’re, you know, you stopped worrying, like, oh, is this gonna like what are people you know, how’s this going to be received, and usually just again, for me, like just really plugged in, I was forced to really plug into like, my heart and kind of how I was feeling and what I needed. And sometimes that was had, you know, it was all about how I was connecting with other people. And I just had so many beautiful kind of moments out of that.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
Erin, thank you for this. Yeah, thank you for

Erin Essenmacher Yeah, inviting me and making the time I love your this podcast so much in print such a treat to be able to be a part of it. I’m really honored.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
i That means so much to me. I mean, even just looking at like a list of things that you’ve done and kind of the parallels and you know, the mean, you did the what the first you created and ran the first and ACD podcast right?

Erin Essenmacher
Yeah. So keep your planted with so much fun.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
And you do. What else did I see feisty Aphrodite, which I would love to know more about? Yeah,

Erin Essenmacher
that’s the name like Athena Aphrodite. I know so many. So many Goddesses. Yeah, that’s the name of the media company I founded after I left NACD in 2020. And actually, sidenote, I’ll send you a link on one of the documentaries that I executive produced is all about grief, and finding good moving through grief and finding meaning. It’s called that Captain Scott be in the great adventure. So I’ll send you the link to it. We look

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
forward to it. Erin, this is really just a treat for me. And yeah, the thank you for sharing yourself with me, your time but also your your heart, and your story, and your grief. And your joy.

Erin Essenmacher
You too. I know that sounds like you’re also in the middle of a lot of transition. And you are someone who, like you said we don’t know each other super well. But I know you well enough to know that you’re someone who just shows up in the world in the way that we’ve been talking about, which I think is beautiful and brave and really, really needed. So thank you.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
Thank you, Sister Athena.

Priscilla Brenenstuhl
have a brilliant have a brilliant. That’s it. I’m trying to look for more words. Have a brilliant that’s the short and sweet. Have a brilliant day.

Erin Essenmacher
Sometimes shorter is better.

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Priscilla Brenenstuhl
Thank you for sharing your time with me. Being that Mother’s Day is upon us it’s only fitting that the themes of the last two episodes ended up centering around stories of the mother. You could say I don’t believe in coincidences either. In honor of the mother, may I suggest you give your mother a call or a hug or whatever is available to you. If your mother is no longer in the physical realm, could you take a moment, close your eyes and imagine what it would feel like if she where in the room with you? Imagine her smell, her laugh. Maybe you don’t have a good relationship with you mom, or any relationship. Is there someone else you has nurtured you that you can reach out to? Perhaps with your eyes closed you can imagine yourself as a child. Sit in that experience for a moment and then imagine your grown self mothering that child, adoring that child, holding and protecting that child. Stay here as long as you’d like.

Happy Mother’s Day.

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